Booked on Planning

Arrested Mobility

• Booked on Planning • Season 5 • Episode 15

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In Episode 109 of the Booked on Planning podcast, listeners are invited into a crucial conversation with Charles T. Brown, author of "Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement." This dialogue dives deep into the systemic obstacles that restrict Black freedom of movement, providing a critical lens on how urban planning can either hinder or help create equitable communities. 

At the core of Brown's discussion is the concept of "arrested mobility" — a term he uses to describe the systemic restrictions placed on Black communities, impeding their ability to navigate spaces freely and safely. The conversation contextualizes how these restrictions aren't just about physical mobility, but also encompass social and economic mobility, propelled by historical and ongoing inequities. 

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Stephanie Rouse: [00:01:00] Welcome back, bookworms. I'm Stephanie Rous. 

Jennifer Hiatt: And I'm Jennifer Hyatt. 

Stephanie Rouse: And we're the hosts of the Booked on Planning podcast. In today's episode, we talk with author Charles T. Brown on his book, Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement. One really interesting factoid I thought at the very end of this episode is when we start talking about how Charles has both a podcast for Arrested Mobility and the book and which came first.

And actually, he had started this work with a documentary that was unsuccessful at the time. Hopefully we'll still see the fruition of that documentary eventually. But it was just very interesting seeing all the different media [00:02:00] formats to bring this idea to life. 

Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah. And in that vein, as our listeners know, our last question is always what books would you recommend?

And Charles instead today got me thinking a little bit about maybe how we should tweak that question and ask what media would you recommend? Because he also gave us some other documentaries and podcast besides the book. So that was really interesting thought that goes right along with some of the themes of his books of not just relying on past practices and really thinking outside the box when you start planning.

Stephanie Rouse: Yeah, and he really hammers the point home about understanding the history of places and not falling into the same patterns, making the same mistakes. And from like a broad perspective, I feel like on the episode with so many other authors, we've really covered the systemic racism in transportation and housing and other elements of city planning.

 And so on a national level, we understand it, but it had me thinking of do I really understand here in Lincoln, Nebraska exactly what happened and how it played out here? And as planners, like [00:03:00] in our communities, do we understand the history that could impact the way people engage and feel welcomed in our communities?

Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah, and I really appreciated how Charles brought together concepts that we have individually talked about, but he really brought them all together to show the type of system that they create that causes ultimately this arrested mobility. So let's get into our conversation with author Charles T.

Brown on his book, Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement. 

Stephanie Rouse: Charles, thank you for joining us on Booked on Planning to talk about your book, Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement. To make sure our listeners are all on the same page, what do you mean when you say arrested mobility? 

Charles Brown: Thank you Stephanie and Jennifer. It's a pleasure to be here with the two of you.

 I don't always get an opportunity to share this space with fellow planning nerds so this is an awesome opportunity. When I say what is arrested mobility, arre- arrested mobility is the systemic [00:04:00] restriction of Black people's ability to move freely, safely, and without suspicion in society.

And when you think about it in that context, sometimes that restriction is literal and that could look like being stopped, being questioned, being ticketed, being searched, being followed, harassed, or even arrested. And unfortunately, we've seen cases too where it includes being severely injured or even killed while walking, biking, driving, or taking transit.

 And then we've also seen cases where this has happened as a result of people just simply existing in public space. And when it comes to arrested mobility, I want people to note though that it's broader than just police contact. When people cannot safely reach employment, education, and other key destinations, their physical mobility begins to restrict their social [00:05:00] and economic mobility, what we refer to as their upward mobility.

And so the word arrested therefore has two distinct meanings. It refers to being confronted by legal or extralegal authority, but it also means being delayed, being constrained, or being prevented from advancing. So when you think about this concept of arrested mobility that I put forward, it asks a basic question.

Who is presumed to belong in public space and who is required to continually explain their presence in it? That is arrested mobility

Jennifer Hiatt: And in the book, you introduce the four Ps as a framework. That's polity, policy, planning, and policing. So can you kinda walk us through each of those quickly and how they interact to systemically restrict movement of Black people? 

Charles Brown: in planning we love acronyms, we love four [00:06:00] Ps, four Cs, four Ds, and all of that.

I wanted to come up with a very creative way to introduce simply what are the sort of tenets of arrested mobility, the element of them. And so what I want your listeners to know is that these are not four unrelated problems. These four Ps that I'll explain in a second, they operate as a system, and it is their cumulative weight that produces arrested mobility, which means that it may not be visible if you just see it through one lens.

And many books have touched on a form of arrested mobility through the planning lens, through the policing lens, through the polity lens, and through the policy lens. What's unique about my book and my framing is I have you consider the cumulative weight of it all. And so when you look at these four related problems or Ps as we just [00:07:00] discussed, they essentially operate as a system And polity then refers to the broader civic power structure.

It includes not just police officers, but also residents who believe they have the authority to determine who belongs in a neighborhood. So this includes the sort of self-deputized citizens that I mention in the book who may follow a Black jogger, who may report a Black child playing outside, or the calls that people make to the police because a Black person appears suspicious, and this is usually the case if one is about wearing a black hoodie for instance.

When it comes to policy includes the laws, the ordinances, the funding decisions, which people don't often think about, and also the regulations that govern movement. These show up in the form of, let's say, jaywalking laws. There are bicycle equipment requirements. There are loitering [00:08:00] ordinances. And then think about oftentimes the traffic rules, the fines, and the fees that disproportionately impact Black people and people of color.

Then thirdly, we have planning our favorite P as most people will know. Planning determines that physical environment in which these policies operate. It determines which neighborhoods receive those sidewalks, which receive the lighting, the transit, the trees, the bike lanes, and so forth, and which neighborhoods unfortunately receive highways, receive pollution, receive the dangerous arterials that we're trying to reverse around this country, and the sort of decades of neglect.

 And then there's policing, the P that people are probably most familiar with and most tied to this book, which is why I'm emphasizing and re-emphasizing the importance of looking at them as a system. Policing is the enforcement mechanism. It determines who is stopped, [00:09:00] who is questioned, ticketed, searched, or arrested for violating those policies.

And so when you think about this system, ultimately the infrastructure creates the vulnerability. The law defines the violation. Enforcement imposes the punishment, and civic power, which we call in the book polity, determines whose behavior is viewed with suspicion. And that's why it's important to see the cumulative weight and see it as a system and not focus on the solo nature of one P.

Jennifer Hiatt: on this podcast, we have covered three of the Ps we've had quite a few books on the policy, and the planning. We haven't had as many on policing, but it was very interesting to think about how we've covered each of those topics independently, and then watch how your book brought them all together to really show how that system works in tandem with each other.

Charles Brown: That's really good to hear, and I was having that issue as [00:10:00] well especially as I talk to young planners, as we talk about the physical environment as it relates to planning but not the social environment. When we think that we can build our way out of harm that is done with people without considering what role policing plays and how people are being enforced on our streets.

And so for me, I just had to bring it all together because when you look at it in isolation, it just didn't tell the complete story. And to your point also, even around polity, not enough talk is had about how our neighbors, how other members of our community enforce the other Ps due to the relationship that they have to police power, to planning, and to polity decisions that determine funding and planning as well

Stephanie Rouse: And in addition to the four Ps, you also describe four types of racism. What are these and how do they differ? 

Charles Brown: it was very important to discuss the four types of [00:11:00] racism. Firstly because I've been accused of being a racist and that hurts. I know that I'm not a racist. I was speaking about racism because racism has such an impact in this country on people of color, but oftentimes too, we don't think about what racism, the impact it has had on, white populations in this country too, many of whom are descendants of those who have performed these racist acts.

So I come to the discussion around racism from a place of love but clarity. And when we talk about racism I didn't want to single out any form in the same way I didn't want to diminish or overemphasize one of the Ps. So the four forms of racism that I discuss in this book are the personal, the interpersonal, institutional, and the cultural racism.

The personal racism is the one that gets all the attention in most discussions, [00:12:00] in most news articles across this country. The personal racism exists within the individual. It's their beliefs, their assumptions, their stereotypes, their fears, and the implicit bias that a person carries. I want to reemphasize again that this book would not be complete if I focused solely on personal racism.

 Personal racism alone is not enough to do the damage that has been done in these communities and around them. The other form of racism is interpersonal racism, and that occurs between people. It is the personal bias that is expressed through behavior. Like following someone when you think about policy, refusing to yield to a Black pedestrian, questioning whether someone belongs, directing a racial slur at them, or calling the police because of their race.

That's interpersonal racism. Then there's institutional racism, which operates through [00:13:00] organizations and institutions. It is embedded in the way an agency practices. When you think about the forming formulas, you think about design standards in engineering hiring decisions, the enforcement priorities in police forces, the data systems whether they allow or disallow race to even be considered, for example, and the policies that repeatedly produce these unequal outcomes.

Then lastly, we have cultural racism. this may seems odd, but, racism has become cultural in a country where racism has existed for so long. But it exists in the dominant stories and the norms of our society. Unfortunately, it has been normalized. And so it teaches us who looks innocent.

 It teaches us who looks dangerous, who's threatening, or who's out of place. And that cultural racism is such a problem that, as I stated in [00:14:00] the book and elsewhere, it ultimately determines some days what I decide to wear when I'm out and about. 

Stephanie Rouse: Yeah, Jennifer mentioned how in past episodes we've hit on a bunch of these different elements of the four with institutional racism. We've seen a lot of that, especially in books covering history of transportation and housing with embedded racism and how we were doing lending practices through FHA and the federal government, where we decided to drive roads through communities.

So a lot of that is really well documented. But I think some of the, the rest of it, I think we just write off the fact that personal racism is, it's hard to change individual minds, so we're gonna focus on these other larger areas. 

Charles Brown: Yeah, and I understand why people focus on systemic or institutional racism.

 I also understand why people focus on personal or interpersonal racism. My issue with people's focus is when they focus on the singular form of it while pretty much normalizing the other form of [00:15:00] it. In this book I talk about how it's important to address them all. And we need to address them all because if we don't get to the root cause of this, which is the fact that it starts in the person and makes its way into the system, then we'll be forever chasing symptoms, and that's not the goal of this book and that's not the goal of my work.

And so it's important that we consider them all. I do like the impact that it could have on focusing on the system. The problem when we mention the system, though, is we act as if agencies and entities don't have individuals in them that are racist that are driving these systems. So that piece there is important for me.

Jennifer Hiatt: And you grew up in Shaqualalac? Sugar Loaf. 

Charles Brown: Sugar Loaf. Sugar 

Jennifer Hiatt: Loaf. Yes. 

Charles Brown: Yeah, did you ever say Sugar Loaf. Yeah. Woo-hoo. 

Jennifer Hiatt: Okay, Sugar Loaf, Mississippi. Yeah. And you served in the US military before becoming an urban planner and researcher. And just like all of us, how did your [00:16:00] early life and personal identity shape your perspective on who is allowed to move freely in public space?

Charles Brown: Firstly, there's no better place, sorry Jennifer, Stephanie, to grow up than Sugar Loaf, Mississippi. I think you all are, have some connection to Nebraska, right? I did spend a summer or two in Omaha, Nebraska. Because as white flight, my auntie, she moved to Omaha.

And so some of my earliest memories as a human are actually from Omaha, Nebraska. I guess because it was such a culture shock for me that I remembered it as a young child. And so when you think about Sugar Loaf, shout out to Sugar Loaf, forever my home. What I learned in Sugar Loaf, and we say Noxubee County 'cause that's the county.

We are one county, but I just so happen to be from Sugar Loaf within Noxubee County. And so what I learned there very early is that movement was never simply about distance. So movement was never simply about [00:17:00] distance. It was about race, it was about resources, it was about place, and it's about a P that is silent in this book, but those who hear it, and that is power.

I grew up in a small, rural Mississippi town. in a low income community a single parent household. And I saw how the place where I was born can ultimately determine how I access transportation, education, employment, and healthcare. But I also saw how it could impact how I access opportunity, and that was long before I was old enough to make choices for myself.

I always questioned why did some have and why did others did not have? Why did one group live over here, and why did all the Blacks live over here? So that, that was my sort of perspective when it comes to Sugar Land. But the military introduced me to another dimension of mobility. It showed me how institutions can create structures the [00:18:00] access and the identity and opportunity, but also how institutions, on a local and an international scale, can regulate bodies, behavior, and movement.

And so when I got an opportunity to study planning, and I happened upon planning after working for an all-Black engineering firm in Mississippi, it gave me the language to connect those experiences. I wish I had discovered planning earlier, and it would've given me the language earlier, but I didn't know about it until college.

And so as a result of that, I began to understand that communities like mine do not simply develop naturally. I had an answer for why certain things existed in my community, why there was an other side of the railroad track. And so what I discovered is that someone ultimately decides where the sidewalk ends, where the highway goes, where the grocery store is to be located and which neighborhoods receive that investment, and whose [00:19:00] safety was prioritized.

That's what I learned through planning, through the military, and growing up in Mississippi. And so when I think about arrested mobility, I do not study arrested mobility from outside of it. This is what's different about this book. I approach arrested mobility as a Black man, as a veteran, as a planner, as a father, as a professor, and someone whose life has been shaped by both mobility and restriction.

So this is not just an academic exercise for me. I identify as a practitioner, a pracademic. But this is a first-hand account

Jennifer Hiatt: I know that was a very serious answer, but that's the first time I've ever heard the term pracademic. 

Charles Brown: Yeah. 

Jennifer Hiatt: I'm a pracademic. And that just, I love that so much. You also talk about how historical disinvestment in marginalized neighborhoods creates unsafe built environments, which, we've talked about quite a bit here too as well.

 So how does that lack of basic infrastructure like a sidewalk [00:20:00] or a safe bike lane actively set residents up for negative interactions with law enforcement? Because from a small overly white community in rural Nebraska, we never saw it that way. 

Charles Brown: Yeah. I really love this question because at the heart of the book I want people to empathize with the environments that people are growing up in, but I want them to understand how those environments came to be.

And that's important because then you could understand why someone would be so upset when people are discriminated against. And I mean that even when they commit what appears to be illegal actions too. And I say that because we often punish people for adapting to environments that government failed to make safe.

And so a person may walk in the roadway because there is no sidewalk. Someone may cross outside of a crosswalk because the nearest marked crosswalk is a half a mile away. And when you are a cyclist, as I am, you may choose to [00:21:00] ride on the sidewalk because the street has high speed traffic and no protected bicycle facility.

And then lastly, a person may be outside at the dark without the required bicycle equipment, or some people have even asked pedestrians to wear bright clothing, and they are doing so because, one, they may not have the money to buy additional clothing that is bright, and two, their environment may not be safe enough to protect them.

So they're choosing, they're making a decision to choose the path which centers their safety the most according to how they see it, and I don't think people should be punished for that. Because those actions may technically violate the law, but the supposed violation was produced by the environment, and we don't hold government accountable for creating such an environment.

And so when you think about that in the context of Black and Brown and low income communities, what this does then is create a vicious cycle. [00:22:00] The neighborhood is denied the infrastructure. The residents then improvise in order to survive, and their improvisation becomes the legal justification for police contact.

And so the same government that failed to provide the sidewalk then tickets the residents for walking where the sidewalk should have been. I think that's flawed, I think that's disingenuous, and is not very loving. And as someone who grew up in the South, I believe very strongly in loving thy neighbor as thy, thyself.

And so that's why it's important 

Stephanie Rouse: Yeah, it really frustrates me here in Lincoln, we have a no riding on the sidewalks prohibition in our downtown core, but we have absolutely no bike infrastructure downtown. So everyone that chooses to navigate through downtown where a lot of amenities are, services are, state agencies, they have to choose between riding in traffic, and they may not be comfortable doing that, or what makes them feel safer, riding on the sidewalk and breaking the rules.

Charles Brown: [00:23:00] and think about it from the perspective of a person with a disability or a mother with her children, or a father with his children. You're gonna choose what you believe to be safe, not an environment that engineers have designed that they perceive to be safe in favor of the car. You're gonna do what's safe for you.

Stephanie Rouse: So speaking of what engineers design as safe, what does it look like for planners and engineers to design mobility solutions through a racial justice framework? 

Charles Brown: Yeah, so it begins by recognizing that racial justice is not something we add after the technical work is complete. It changes how we define the problem in the first place because what it does is forces one to look at the historical context that created the inequity, the lack of access, and the lack of opportunities.

And so one of the things I loved about teaching and continue to love about teaching and reading is that I feel confident when I tell planners and engineers that they should begin with [00:24:00] history. They should ask the question, "Why is this street dangerous? Why was this neighborhood denied investment?

Who was displaced, divided, or exposed to pollution by these previous decisions?" This should all happen as part of their needs assessment and their problem identification. But too often they find this as an inconvenience, and I think this is core to being a good planner and an engineer in our field. And so what this racial justice framework does is force one to ask more questions, and at the heart of it is four questions.

Who benefits? Number one. Number two, who bears the burden? Number three, who has decision-making power? That's that other silent P. And then lastly, who will still be able to remain after that community, after the investment is made? There is not a single project, a single policy, nor plan, nor initiative that I work on where I don't apply those [00:25:00] questions.

 It's just an aid at this point. Because a racial justice framework means treating lived experiences as expertise, and that also doesn't happen. We incentivize other stakeholders' participation, whereas we disincentivize participation of those who need our help the most, and that includes people from the community.

Ultimately, they're not looked at as experts, but in the way that I approach the work, there's no bigger expert than the community themselves But you gotta like people. That's another thing. And what I find is, unfortunately in our field, we have so many technocrats that they don't know how to actually talk to and and love on people.

 It's okay to be shy and be an introvert, but if that's the case, give that job to someone else. So part of it is recognizing where you have the ability to thrive and where you're good at. The other part of it is simply getting out of the way and let those people who know how to communicate with people about the [00:26:00] problems be center stage.

Jennifer Hiatt: We actually just engaged in a neighborhood subarea plan for our comprehensive plan, and one of the things that we ended up doing not cognitively, it just worked out in this way, is we partnered with a director of a community center to help host our community engagement because she had really strong ties in the neighborhood.

And it was one of the first times where we had a grant, so you know, money is always tight when you're working on city projects and such. But we had a grant, and we were able to pay people for their time when they would come in and be our community experts. And it was such a different planning- and community engagement experience to be able to actually reach those people. it was really because we were able to engage with an expert in that way. So it's a cool experience. 

Charles Brown: I like that. I like that. And I was a huge advocate and someone who practices early on in my career [00:27:00] because I realized how many of us were showing up as planners and our time was paid for.

And we would be asking a lot of people, many of whom who had children, to come out at these weird times of the day to share with us their knowledge, and they wouldn't be compensated at all. And I'm not saying we should compensate people during every interaction, but there are cases certainly where I think it is justified, and it's really good to see our industry embrace that more.

Jennifer Hiatt: 'Cause as you said, we got paid as planning experts. They're experts in their neighborhood. They should be paid for their expertise in that way. 

Charles Brown: Right. 

Stephanie Rouse: So in the book you state that, "In order for the field of planning to effectively reckon with its history of intentional harms done to Black people and communities, restorative justice must be considered." What does this look like for planners? 

Charles Brown: Yeah. Firstly, if I could go back and revise that statement, I would change it from must to shall be.

 That's an area of growth for me. justice begins with the truth that many planning harms [00:28:00] were not accidental. It is very hard for people in our field to come to grips with that fact

And one of the main reasons for that is because they deny the history that proves it, or they just simply were not exposed to it or aware of it, but it's there. And my ask of them is to really search it out so that you can have a more complete understanding of your community. You don't have to know what happened all over the United States from a historical standpoint, but if you're practicing, let's say, planning in Omaha, Nebraska, Lincoln, and other places, at a minimum a requirement should be that you understand the history of that place before you can practice, because it's so important, and it really helps you to avoid trying to mitigate the elephant in the room, which is the mistrust, the distrust that community has, because your agency, whether you know it or not, may have caused harm to [00:29:00] the population that you're engaging.

And so we just don't want people caught off guard when they're doing that engagement, because I believe all planners and engineers mean well. they may not have been guided well, which is the problem. And so restorative justice then begins with that truth, like I said, that many planning harms were not accidental.

And so when you look at the importance of restorative justice and why it shall be considered this can happen by way of institutions must publicly acknowledge what they did, who benefited and who was harmed, and how the harm continues Resources must be directed towards repairing the damage.

There's been a, a nationwide call, if not an international call, for reparations. I believe in that. That could include, as we've seen through the prior administration as well as in the current, Removing highways and reconnecting [00:30:00] communities.

We've seen the sort of building of sidewalks and parks. We also see people, supporting Black homeownership and businesses. And then lastly, improving transit. And there were some, a few cases as well where we've seen land returned to the original owner if it was taken unjustly.

Also, I would say thirdly is that affected communities must receive actual decision-making power, not simply another opportunity to comment on a predetermined plan. And this is where things start to feel like simply a formality in these communities, where many engineers and planners go in, and it does feel as if they already have a predetermined plan.

And so finally, I would say that the policies, the professional standards, and the institutions that cause the harm must change so that it cannot be simply repeated under a different name. And it's very hard for that change to [00:31:00] happen without changing the people in it. And so that's why I am a fan of DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, because I think it forces us to consider what an environment could and and how it often operates when it's not diverse.

I heard somewhere someone say that an environment that is not diverse is inherently biased. I believe that. And so that's what it could look like, and that's also why it's important.

Jennifer Hiatt: Concepts like the 15-minute city and Vision Zero are really popular in urban planning right now. We hear about these conversations all the time, and they all seem quite race neutral on the face of them. But what are actually the hidden dangers of implementing these ideas without a focus on that racial equity?

Charles Brown: I'm a fan of all of them. I'm a fan of 15 minute cities. I'm a fan of Vision Zero. I'm a fan of safe systems. I'm a fan of Complete Streets. I'm a fan of Open Streets. So when you think [00:32:00] about all of those popular forms of planning and policies, I wanna just go on record to firstly say that I'm a fan.

I think oftentimes where a voice like mine is needed is that when these great ideas are introduced, we often forget where they come from And many of them come from Europe. And we act as if you can simply take a policy or plan no matter how great it is, and just implement it within the US We know that there are many differences between the US and Europe.

One is the diversity of this country, how welcoming we are to people from around the globe. That's not to say Europe isn't, but not to the degree that we are. All right? And so as the most diverse nation in the world, you have to be considerate of the enforcement powers or the role that enforcement is going to play [00:33:00] in each of these policies.

You also have to strongly consider race, because race neutral planning can become race blind planning. And race blind systems frequently reproduce the inequities already built into the landscape. And so when you think about Vision Zero, it can save lives and it will save lives, but it can also cost lives if you lead with enforcement.

15 minute cities is a great idea. It can provide extraordinary access, but the ways in which our cities have been built historically here when you consider racial residential segregation and who tends to get investment in their cities versus those who don't, who are often Black and brown, you could, if not considering a race and resources, just create 15-minute ghettos, and no one wants that.

And so I'm a huge fan of these and other [00:34:00] policies, but they can't be race blind. We've seen the impact of race blind systems in this country

Stephanie Rouse: I think one of the frustrating things among many between the changing administrations was the complete shift away from DEI work and embedding policies in federal grants and federal programs, Vision Zero being one of them. The grant for Vision Zero plans used to have I, I can't remember exactly what it was called, but a racial justice component that you had to consider that first and foremost.

 And when in Lincoln we submitted our grant application, we were awarded basically at the end of the last administration. We had it all built in. We had a consultant on board. We were excited about that component of it, and then had to completely peel it out of the grant because of the funding changing.

 then watching nationally companies peel back their DEI initiatives and it becoming such a footnote when it really I think we're making a lot of progress. 

Charles Brown: Yeah, the amount of fear I've seen in people has been truly disheartening. I thought our profession, I [00:35:00] thought our academics, I thought the people who are advocates of DEI would be stronger in this moment.

I couldn't be more disappointed than what I am in people. But it goes to show you how things can simply be a formality. It also revealed how some people were just simply opportunistic. There was this new opportunity to get funding based on this new idea, and they latched onto it. I think we need better morals, better values, and we really need better accountability.

And I hope for the sake of our industry that people don't forget how people cowered in this moment because when the tides change, you're gonna see those very people once more latching themselves onto opportunities that were meant to benefit those harmed most. And I think about how- In some ways, my work is viewed currently through the lens of [00:36:00] like a scarlet letter.

 I'm so proud to wear that scarlet letter because I think about what my ancestors have been through, and I often ask my grandparents, "What were you doing back then when there was so much injustice happening in Mississippi in your face?" And each one of them told me to my face, " I was fighting for what was right."

And I'm proud as their grandson and their son, their brother, their neighbor to say, " I'm still fighting for you and others." Because we have to stand for something. And in our profession, I don't think we're standing collectively, and it has really revealed people's true intentions. And for that too, I'm thankful because I'm a realist.

And so I believe in this country. as I stated, I'm a former veteran. I wouldn't wanna live anywhere else in the world, but we have some fixing to do, as they like to say. And so I just believe that if I'm gonna spend my time, I'm gonna [00:37:00] be part of the fixing 

Stephanie Rouse: I think your book is a great way to bring people along and introduce them to more concepts than I think they've probably read about or learned about in the past and hopefully it'll help change minds and get people engaged again in this work.

Charles Brown: Absolutely. 

Stephanie Rouse: So you also have a podcast, The Arrested Mobility Podcast, which you mention in the book. I'm curious which came first, your journey to start down the path to write this book or the podcast? 

Charles Brown: That's a good question. I may start using that to see what people know about me, like how well they know me.

Which came first, my podcast or my book? I'm gonna let you all in on a little secret that few people know. The documentary came first. But the documentary was a failure, and the documentary was a failure because... and I'll spare people in saying this, it was my first time trying to produce a documentary around a concept in which I just had some supportive [00:38:00] evidence, but I didn't have a clearer definition.

I didn't have enough research to support this concept and this theory, but I had the visuals, I had the idea, and I approached a group to film a documentary for me, like a teaser on Arrested Mobility, because I couldn't sleep at night. This word just kept coming to me. And I was working with two other Black women who I mention in the book.

I'm so grateful for them believing in me and this idea of this documentary. But ultimately it was a failure, and it failed because it was in the pre George Floyd context. And based on how we scripted this mini documentary, the producers that I hired thought that it was too sensational. It was unreal.

It was too violent, the story that we had written, so they backed out. And when they backed out we decided to not move forward with the documentary. So instead- I pivoted [00:39:00] to the podcast and the book with hopes that I can return back to the documentary. So if there's anyone out there who could help me with a docuseries around this that's my shameless plug.

So the podcast came first after the documentary. what the podcast did was it gave me an opportunity to begin exploring these ideas publicly through the individual stories the cities, and the lived experiences before the book brought them together into a comprehensive framework. Remember Pracademic.

So the book and the podcast complement each other, which I think is very unique, but the podcast is not simply an audio version of the book. The book provides the history, the framework, the research, and the broader argument. The podcast allows listeners to hear directly from the people experiencing and challenging arrested mobility, [00:40:00] so it's like bringing it to life.

And so the listener does not only hear about the problem, but what they get when they combine the two is that they hear the voices, they hear the emotions, they hear the resistance and courage of residents and advocates, researchers, and others who are working to unarrest mobility in this country. And for those who've often told me, "Hey, you have an amazing voice.

You should have a podcast," I did it for them and I continue to do it for them. So the way that I explain it best is that the book explains the system while the podcast allows you to meet the people living within it and the people working to transform it. So that's why I do it, and now you know what most don't know.

It actually started with a failed documentary.

Jennifer Hiatt: It's not failed yet 'cause there's- Right ... still an opportunity to move forward with it. 

Charles Brown: When you achieve a certain amount of success, people think you have no failures. But there is [00:41:00] someone young that is listening, and I want them to know that I failed. I continue to fail. But I don't consider it failure when I learn, and I learned.

And from that came a podcast and a book that I'm proud of. And there's someone who's gonna listen to this and say, "Let's produce that documentary." 

Jennifer Hiatt: And all we can do is anybody who cares about this and knows that it's right, all we can do is work towards a more just and more perfect union. And as an adjunct professor you get to help people do that as well.

So what is the number one lesson or mindset shift that you try to instill in the young, up-and-coming planners that you work with so that they don't replicate the mistakes of the past? 

Charles Brown: I think I've said this in so many words, but when I've taught at Rutgers and when I've lectured at other institutions around the world, the number one lesson I wanted students to understand was that planning is not neutral There is no separating, planning and politics neither.

 [00:42:00] again, in order to be a good planner, you must understand history. because what I've seen is a planner can be technically brilliant. Many of these institutions including Rutgers, are great at teaching planners to be technically brilliant. What I wanted the students, my students to understand though is that while you can be technically brilliant, you can still reproduce harm if that technical knowledge is disconnected from history, if it's disconnected from power, race, and lived experience.

And then lastly, it was important for me to share with them the importance of approaching our work with humility and empathy We touch so much on the technical aspects that we don't touch the hearts and minds of students. In this work that we do, no matter how professional we are, I feel it's heart work. Heart, as in one's heart.

 You're either coming to harm or not [00:43:00] harm, and I wanted them to know that they're not neutral, they're not excused from the decisions that they're making. They had an obligation to understand that history, that power, and that race, and I would judge them accordingly in love

Stephanie Rouse: And as this is Booked On Planning, what books would you recommend our listeners check out? 

Charles Brown: Now this is an interesting question. because I don't always read planning books. Okay? Because I think one needs to be much more well-rounded. 'Cause planners, we are interested in everything, right?

I just mentioned to you I would love to be the director of the FBI. I would love to be a running back in the NFL. If I wasn't 5'8" I would love to be in the NBA. I could tell you a lot of things I would like to do. So for me, I'll give you some planning books. Number one, wanna include my homie, my friend, my sister Veronica Davis, who is just outstanding in everything that, that [00:44:00] she does.

 So Veronica Davis would be, her new book Inclusive Cities I think is the name of it, would be number one for me. And in no particular order, I'm just giving you the names of books of people. My old friend Richard Rothstein The Color of Law is an amazing book because his book brought to life many of this the sort of background research that I needed to make the case around planning.

And I had an opportunity to interview him on a podcast when a book, when his book first came out. I love the work that he's doing. Dr. Lawrence T. Brown out of Baltimore, he has a book called The Black Butterfly. I've interviewed him as well. Great book. My sister Angie Smith, I wrote the foreword to her book called Right of Way.

 I love what Angie is doing and have done, and contributions that she's made to our industry. A good old friend of mine, Dr. Adon- Adonia Lugo wrote a book back in the day called Bike Race. I love that because [00:45:00] Adonia has a really interesting take on things, and I love the way that she's always been unapologetic about this work.

 But the author that has influenced me the most in terms of grabbed my attention the most in books, believe it or not, is Robert Greene. He wrote The 48 Laws of Power. He wrote The Laws of Human Nature. And I think he wrote a book called The Art of Seduction He's just a well-researched person, and I think he has a lot of great lessons and thoughts and ideas in his book that could serve us all.

Because the one P that we don't talk about that is loud in my book but silent in others is power And so I spent a lot of time reading about power because I think you either understand it or become a victim of it, and I refuse to be a victim of anything. And it may be the fact that I'm a Scorpio, and we love that stuff.

So there you [00:46:00] go. 

Stephanie Rouse: All great recommendations. We've actually had, I think, about half of these authors on to talk about their books in the last couple years. They're all, great authors and have a lot of great wisdom to share. And to your point of reading outside of the planning world we love it when our guest authors bring up fiction books that have city-building elements to it ' cause I think it really does help to shape your work when you have more- Yeah, absolutely

diverse perspectives. 

Charles Brown: Yeah, and, taking it back to what we discussed, documentaries. Not everyone wants to spend 30 minutes to an hour or more reading. As a visual learner documentaries did it for me first. So there's one called The Lessons of Hayti which explore how the highway system destroyed a community in North Carolina.

It's called The Lessons of Hayti, I think is the name of that documentary. There's one out of is it St. Louis, Missouri? There was a, an apartment complex there. They decided to tear it down. It's north of the [00:47:00] Delmar Divide. In, in St. Louis there's a street called Delmar Ave., and it's north of there. But it was torn down. I can't think of the documentary. And then anything that ProPublica does I'm into as well as Vice News.

So I like first-person interviews and people who travel to different cities. So when I retire, I'll probably spend my time either taking people on tours of cities talking about all the work that I've done on a nice little tour bus or traveling around the world with my camera exploring cities and how people access transportation and housing.

So I love that stuff, and I think it takes you outside the book in the way that the podcast does. yeah. And they should listen to your podcast if they don't already. 

Stephanie Rouse: I love it. I love the recommendations on other media to check out. We actually have a, a monthly newsletter where we try and put in other recommendations beyond just what's in the podcast, so we'll have to include some of those in there as well.

 Charles, thank you so much for joining us on Books on [00:48:00] Planning today to talk about your book, Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement. 

Charles Brown: Thank you. It was an absolute honor and pleasure to, first meet you all electronically. Thank you for highlighting my work. Should you ever need anything or find yourself in the Northeast, let me know.

I would love to explore a city with you. Take care and let me know if you need anything. 

Stephanie Rouse: Thanks. We, yeah, we would love that. 

Jennifer Hiatt: Thank you. Yeah. 

Charles Brown: All right. I mean it, too. 

Jennifer Hiatt: We hope you enjoyed this conversation with author Charles T. Brown on his book, Arrested Mobility: Overcoming the Threat to Black Movement. You can get your own copy through the publisher at Island Press, an imprint of Princeton University Press, by supporting your local bookstore or the show through our page at bookshop.org/shop/bookedonplanning.

Remember to subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts, and please rate, review, and share the show. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time on Booked on Planning. 

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Jennifer Hiatt

Co-host
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Stephanie Rouse, AICP

Co-host