Booked on Planning

Key to the City

• Booked on Planning • Season 3 • Episode 21

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In our latest episode we are joined by Sara Bronin, the brilliant mind behind "Key to the City: How Zoning Shapes Our World." With a blend of historical insight and visionary thinking, Sara navigates the intricate world of zoning, advocating for strategic enhancements rather than radical abolition. Imagine neighborhoods unshackled from outdated regulations, poised for vibrant growth and adaptability. Discover how zoning can be a catalyst for cultural resurgence with examples from cities like Nashville and Chicago, and how it addresses (or ignores) environmental challenges in areas like Scottsdale and Tucson. This conversation promises to reshape your understanding of zoning's potential as we explore how zoning transcends private domains to revolutionize public spaces.

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Stephanie Rouse:

you're listening to the booked on planning podcast, a project of the nebraska chapter of the american planning association. In each episode, we dive into how cities function by talking with authors on housing, transportation and everything in between. Join us as we get Booked on Planning. Welcome back, Bookworms, to another episode of Booked on Planning. In this episode we talk with author Sarah Bronnan on her book Key to the City how Zoning Shapes Our World Back in 2023,. We talked with author Nolan Gray on his book Arbitrary Lines, which makes the case for doing away with zoning, so it seemed fitting to talk with Sarah about the opposite approach to amend our zoning codes to make them work better.

Jennifer Hiatt:

As I shared in our episode with Nolan, doing away entirely with zoning made me a little uncomfortable, so I thought Sarah's approach was much more realistic. It's based on the idea of loosening the chokehold regulations can have on the process and allowing the majority of desirable uses by right One topic that I found really interesting from her book was the idea of zoning all of the city, not just private property.

Stephanie Rouse:

We struggle often with getting our public right away to support the ideas in our zoning codes applied to private property. We struggle often with getting our public right-of-way to support the ideas in our zoning codes applied to private property. The best way to make this happen is to bring the streets under the purview of zoning as well, although I'm not sure how happy our transportation departments would be about this idea.

Jennifer Hiatt:

Well, who cares about them? Anyway, we have a lot of respect for our transportation department and I agree that was a really great point. I also found her idea of moving the formal public input process to the beginning of the project quite interesting. I know we have had some projects that get derailed at the last minute because of late concerns from the public, and they were easily addressable, but it would have been great if we could have learned about them early on and then incorporated that feedback into the design process. So let's get into our conversation with author Sarah Bronin on Key to the City how Zoning Shapes Our World.

Stephanie Rouse:

Well, Sara, welcome to the Booked on Planning podcast. We're happy to have you on to talk about your book, key to the City, which argues that zoning has so much potential to support great cities when done right. We're also hearing in the profession calls to abolish zoning, so what's your response to the ideas floating around out there that we should get rid of zoning altogether?

Sara Bronin:

Well, first, stephanie and Jennifer, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about this conversation and I think you really got right to the heart of the debate about zoning. That's happening right now in zoning circles, such that they are, and you do have a group of people that says, well, zoning is such a huge problem that it should be abolished. And I guess I have a couple of reflections on that approach. The first is that humans, throughout the course of history, have always in some form or fashion regulated the way their communities are organized through land use and building rules. So I think, try as we might, we probably would not get away from some form of regulation of our built environment. The other thing is that, just from a political standpoint, it's highly unlikely that even a local government maybe a small local government might, but a large city that has zoning, or even a state legislature, would simply say we're done, we give up, we're just tossing out the code entirely.

Sara Bronin:

I think it's more likely that places will look to changing their zoning incrementally or, in some cases, revising their zoning code in a comprehensive way. And those are the opportunities. Those are things that we see actually cities doing and even state legislatures doing. They're not getting rid of zoning, they're incrementally improving it. So from a practical and political standpoint, I don't see that the abolition of zoning is in our future. Maybe that will change, but my book takes the view that zoning is here. It's something we have to work with. It has a lot of opportunities for us and if we rethink it we can actually give ourselves the communities we hope for.

Jennifer Hiatt:

On that note, a term that stuck with me in the opening chapters of the book was what zoning is kind of doing now which is creating frozen neighborhood syndrome, and I had never really considered that zoning is kind of doing now which is creating frozen neighborhood syndrome, and I had never really considered that zoning was causing such an issue. But of course it is. So can you define for our listeners what you mean by frozen neighborhood syndrome and how zoning perpetuates it?

Sara Bronin:

So I love this idea. I would attribute the phrase to Bob Ellison, who was my professor at Yale Law School and wrote a book about America's frozen neighborhoods and really spoke to, I think, what I see in zoning codes all over the country, which is that they were adopted maybe in 1950, 1960, 1970, and then they were just left there and never really rethought. And so, instead of seeing communities evolve as needs change, as tastes change, we have neighborhoods that were really stuck in a very old way of thinking about development, of thinking about residential areas versus commercial areas, and that has contributed to what you can maybe call stagnation frozen neighborhoods, neighborhoods that really haven't been allowed to change because the zoning constraints on them have mandated that developments stay exactly the same. We're seeing challenges including, by the way, from COVID, in how we zone and maybe the restrictive nature of so much American zoning, the restrictive nature meaning, in this case, single family neighborhoods with large lots that we see virtually in every community across the country.

Stephanie Rouse:

So when we do get communities that are finally making the code changes that they need to to encourage better neighborhoods and support community development, we often struggle with getting from code change to actual market change. So we might put something in our ordinances trying to support more housing development or more density or active modes of transportation, but we just don't see the market respond to that. Are there any ways or any approaches to code changes that communities can make that really help support the market side of change?

Sara Bronin:

I think, for communities that have looked at their zoning codes and really wanted to see market change in, you have to provide the market with certainty.

Sara Bronin:

One way that zoning codes provide certainty is by articulating the kinds of uses that might be allowed in a certain district, or the kinds of buildings that might be allowed in that district, and saying that, as long as these developments meet the specific criteria in the code, they will be permitted after, of course, staff review. What we often see in zoning reform processes, though, is that the code reform will come with a public hearing. Right there you introduce uncertainty into the process, because anything can happen at a public hearing. You might get angry neighbors, you might get commissioners who just want one specific kind of aesthetic, and they might impose that cost, and that's where you see developers shy away from proceeding with an application. So, again, I think part of what people who want the market to respond to zoning reforms must do is to figure out to what extent can they provide the market with certainty, and I think, as of right zoning helps with that.

Stephanie Rouse:

I think another issue that I've noticed is, at least in our community, is we'll make these small little tweaks to our code, like we'll increase the height limit by 10 feet in a couple of districts or we'll reduce parking by a little bit. Or we did what we called an affordable housing text amendment, where we did like three or four little changes that like reduced a corner setback, increased height, reduced parking a little bit in some of our zoning districts, and a year later I was getting ready for lobbying on Capitol Hill and it was like, oh, how impactful has this been. And reached out to our development department they were like, yeah, I mean a few people have taken advantage of the administrative review amendment that we did, but nothing else really. And I think it's just because they're just such small little changes that they don't really help.

Sara Bronin:

So I call these, in key to the city and in other research that I've done, zoning by a thousand cuts.

Sara Bronin:

Because what has happened in zoning is that all of these technical provisions, the ones you talk about, setbacks or lot coverage requirements, minimum parking requirements, height caps and occupancy restrictions in some cases even come together to constrain the types of development that can be located in particular areas and can, as you point out, deter the private parties and private property owners from proceeding with projects. So while I don't know what the equivalent of greenwashing is in zoning, but for a city council to say, oh, rah, rah, we've created this affordable housing district, come to find out that they've either only made modest changes or in some cases they've made it even harder to produce the housing in that district than even other existing multifamily districts. You see again sort of the rhetoric and the idea that, oh, we made a change, not every change is a good change. So in my book I really try to help people understand what these rules say, what they are, what a setback is, for example, and again try to help people readers piece together how those things might work to deter or to promote development.

Jennifer Hiatt:

I work in redevelopment and we actually hear all the time about how zoning by a thousand cuts is raising the cost of development, impacting things like affordable housing, and how the review process does hinder development. One of the observations that you make is that we put public participation. I mean, we were that you make is that we put public participation. We were just talking about it. We put public participation of a project at the end and of course we ask our developers like go out and host input in the neighborhood, and they do, but no one comes because they don't really know what's going on. They don't understand to everyone, at least in our community. Public participation is standing up at the podium in front of city council and telling city council their feelings. That happens right at the end of the process, after all of the money has been expended. And so what would putting participation process of a redevelopment project or any project at the beginning of the process look like to you, like how would you encourage that in a better zoning situation?

Sara Bronin:

Yeah Well, I was really fortunate to serve in the role of chair of the City of Hartford's Planning and Zoning Commission for seven years and in that role, as I talk about in the book in a few of the chapters, I helped to lead an overhaul of the zoning. Types of development, particularly housing, should be clearly articulated in the code, the requirements, including form-based requirements, should be set forth and that once that was done, then a developer or private property owner could come to the city ask for a permit and they would receive it after staff reviewing it. So again that as-of-right type permitting. In Hartford we actually made all housing as-of-right. There is no public hearing for housing and the reason for that is that we developed these very clear rules about housing and how it would turn out in particular neighborhoods by saying how tall it might be, by using those thousand cuts.

Sara Bronin:

But I hope for good, because it created a menu that would enable the neighborhood to have expectations about how the development would occur, while giving certainty to those people who were willing to take the risk and develop something new. So I think that's one strategy for communities to again try to think through the end product, the design of buildings that would be acceptable in certain neighborhoods and to write the zoning rules to give everybody greater certainty about the process. And in Hartford we have seen, I think, a lot of benefits to that process, including development. That has happened in a more efficient manner and that's really good for a city like Hartford, a post-industrial city that could use more development.

Stephanie Rouse:

So one community that you profile in your book is Nashville and Music Row, and you talk about the vibrancy of these kind of districts, which sometimes can be harder to translate down to a smaller community like Lincoln, nebraska, that doesn't have that really vibrant music culture or something that really makes us stand out. How can smaller cities incubate the type of artistic spaces that are supporting these great neighborhoods like Music Row?

Sara Bronin:

Every city has something to offer when it comes to culture, but one of the things that we've noticed when reviewing zoning codes for another project that I have called the National Zoning Atlas is that we see too many communities that are essentially single use only, in some cases almost entirely single family zoning and nothing else.

Sara Bronin:

So what that means is across that community there might not be the coffee shops or the dance halls or the other third places, as I call them in the book, where people can informally gather. So I am a big fan of including those types of uses in every community. I'm also a big fan as you probably read in one of the first chapters of the book of just generally mixed-use communities, communities that are much more convenient and maybe fulfilling to people than single-family, only only large lot zoning, where you have to get in your car for everything, where you're really far apart from neighbors and where, frankly, you might not just have the spontaneous interactions and the convenience of having more than just housing located in your neighborhood. So again, I'm a fan of that type of development. But I think every community big, small, rural, urban, suburban has the urge to convene in some form or fashion and through culture, through the spaces that support culture and exchange. They can do that, but only if the zoning allows them to.

Jennifer Hiatt:

In my circle of planning friends we joke that most planners who burn out become bartenders like they open up a bar because they know how important that third space is. But even Nashville's own city planning department has admitted that their zoning does not support those third places. They understand that those were the places that the magic of Music City occurred. But cities don't seem to be able to get out of their own way to allow for those third spaces to really come into play. I know you've been doing a bunch of amendments to Hartford zoning code. So how can planners help the mayor or city council just get out of their own way?

Sara Bronin:

I think one thing that planners can do is just offer the success stories in mixed use zoning and there's success stories. You featured on your podcast that Planning Magazine features that you a lot Urban Land Institute. You do see success stories at different scales on a very basic level, mixed use, but maybe one step further, the idea that a mix of uses should include cultural venues where culture can happen or arts can happen, and in the book I talk about, well, a big city where we've seen one particular artist, slash urbanist, slash real estate developer, almost, who has taken underutilized spaces in the South Side neighborhood and repurposed those for, in that case, a theater, a movie theater, a sort of library, an arts center with a bar and DJs and sort of just array of cultural activities that are housed within and adjacent to what was formerly a residential neighborhood. And I talked about how the zoning code in Chicago actually helped to enable that by loosening some of the restrictions on uses that previously existed on that neighborhood.

Sara Bronin:

So again, I think from a planning perspective, using case studies from big cities, small cities and everything in between can really be helpful in making the case and, I think, appealing to the fun side of decision makers. I mean it probably is not the case that a city council member, even in a small town, doesn't want to go out to a restaurant you know might not want to catch a music event. We're not talking about the scale of Nashville or Austin, both of which I cover in the book and have huge districts, neighborhoods and huge parts of their economies dependent on culture and tourism and music in both cases. So I think starting small and appealing to decision makers' own self-interest and seeing some of those communities might be a place to start.

Stephanie Rouse:

We touched on this already a little bit with the idea of the frozen neighborhood, but one of the big issues with zoning is that it has this lack of ability to respond to new and emerging trends quickly. How can planners build zoning codes that are more nimble and responsive to our changing cities?

Sara Bronin:

Planners had to do that in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Sara Bronin:

In lots of different communities around the country we saw very fast zoning reforms to enable things like outdoor cafes and as we hopefully emerge from that era, we see zoning changes that are allowing for conversions of the office buildings that have been emptied out due to the work from home the rise in work from home that we saw during COVID. So planners have had to in recent years respond to pretty significant shifts in you want to call them land use patterns. You can call it that If you're not a planner and you just want to say in the way people move and occupy their communities, I mean, I think that really is what it comes down to. So I think, using the lessons from COVID-19 as a starting point, that's something I do suggest in the book to say look, we have this flexibility, we're responsive to those shifts during COVID-19. Why don't we keep that going and why don't we create codes that are both more flexible but also more expansive and less restrictive in some of the things that we've held true in the planning world for many years?

Jennifer Hiatt:

Two other large cities that you compare, scottsdale and Tucson. We talk about the zoning impact on water consumption and you know, considering how much we're supposed to be trending towards like conservation and energy efficiency, water scarcity, it was kind of disturbing to read about how Scottsdale actually mandates water thirsty turf or ground cover and comparing that to Tucson, which is zoned out for water friendly native plants. Of course I understand like the impact of a larger lot and that kind of impact that it has on single family housing, whatever, but I had honestly not ever really thought about it in like an environmental water context. So can you just talk about how these are the things that people aren't really thinking of upfront as zoning requirements? I don't think anybody was really thinking about how turf versus water-friendly plants shows up in a zoning code.

Sara Bronin:

Well, that's exactly why I wrote this book so that people would kind of think about how these individual zoning provisions have significant impacts at scale on things other than housing. So you know, I've mentioned several times already in this conversation residential zoning, but in the book there's only one chapter on residential zoning and, as you point out, there are other chapters, other ideas about environments and water management, about transportation patterns, about nightlife and vibrancy, about craftsmen and what we call in Hartford craftsmen, industrial uses, and zoning affects all of that. And I love how you pulled out the example, though, of Tucson and Scottsdale. And the reason those are in the book are because I visited both of those places and I just looked up their zoning codes, thinking I wonder if zoning plays a role in the water usage in both of these cities and the desert landscapes you see in Tucson and you do not see in Scottsdale. And lo and behold, of course zoning plays a role in that.

Sara Bronin:

And you can then look back and look at the historical water usage for both of those communities and see Tucson's is far less water usage per capita, both of those communities. And see, Tucson's is far less water usage per capita than Scottsdale. And again, people in Scottsdale, they're forced to water their lawns every day in order to make sure that they're green in accordance with the zoning code, and that, I think, is maybe an unintended consequence of maybe formerly aesthetic requirement, or maybe Scottsdale just wanted to throw its nose at the region's crazy water shortage problems. So I don't know what the motivation is, but the consequences are there and my point in the book is to say there are ways that we can use zoning to actually manage a wide number of issues beyond what we tend to talk about most when it comes to zoning, which is housing and housing affordability.

Stephanie Rouse:

So you made a comment in that last answer about why you wrote the book and it made me think about when I was reading this. I was wondering who did you write the book for? Because it kind of is introducing zoning, so who is your intended audience?

Sara Bronin:

The world, because every American, whether they know it or not, whether they live in a community with zoning or not, has been affected by zoning, because zoning has effects on our ability to relate to each other as people. It has effects on our choice of transportation Do we use a car or not? It has effects on our economies and I talk about that in the book on arts and culture, as we were just discussing and, of course, our ability to meet our basic needs, both housing and, by the way, food. There's a chapter on food related zoning. I couldn't help it. I'm a food oriented person and there's a lot of interactions between zoning and our food supply.

Sara Bronin:

So I wrote the book for anybody who maybe walked around their neighborhood and wondered why is this? And maybe had never heard of or thought of zoning before. So I, of course, expect that planners will read this book, that people interested in transportation systems might read the book. But I really wrote the book for everybody, and that's why, instead of taking a very legalistic approach to the topic which I could do because I'm not only a lawyer but I'm a law professor, so I'm very legally text inclined Instead of doing that, though, I really focus on stories and telling the stories of places and, in some cases, individual people, because I do feel like it is a better way to illustrate how zoning is actually functioning in the world and the impacts that it has.

Jennifer Hiatt:

And to that end, even if you think that you're already a zoning person because I would have said that I thought that I have my planning degree I am also a land use attorney I feel like I have thought a lot about how zoning impacts things, but then you would bring up things like water usage or Stephanie's probably going to bring up here in a minute zoning the public area just as much as you were the private area, and I was like going to bring up here in a minute, zoning the public area just as much as you were the private area, and I was like, wow, I should have been thinking about that but hadn't quite gotten there. So, even if you think you're a zoning expert, you should still pick up the book.

Sara Bronin:

Thank you for advertising that. Yes, I guess that is the point of this podcast trying to pitch why this book is valuable. The other thing I would just add is that I do think the book is valuable for planning commissioners, because people who take on that role, they're doing it for the good of their community, they're doing it with all the best intentions, but they might not actually have a full perspective as to what zoning is and does so for planners out there that you know want to offer their planning commissioners a resource. I hope and feel that this could be valuable to those people who serve on commissions and could just really again situate what they're doing in a broader context.

Stephanie Rouse:

Yeah, that's a really good point and Jennifer kind of teed up my next question. But an idea that I really loved from your book was the concept of zoning not just private property but public right-of-way as well. So many communities adopt complete street policies but they lack the teeth that zoning does and don't really consider neighborhood context. They seem to be two separate things that are operating on their own and don't work together. Why do you think this idea hasn't caught on to the extent that I think it should?

Sara Bronin:

One of the reasons, I think, is because there's not that many communities that have used zoning to actually help to regulate the public space.

Sara Bronin:

You know, I did legal research, I made the case in Hartford that the zoning rules at the state level and at the local level enable us to reach into the public space and to set out rules for development.

Sara Bronin:

Because, after all, the streets are land use, the sidewalks are land use and if you actually look at a state, most of the state zoning enabling acts have identical language. They say what local governments can do and how they can regulate. And you know again, nine times out of 10, they have the same language about regulating land and as long as it's not a state road or a federal road or federal lands or tribal lands, the local government by and large has the ability to lay out the rules of the game. So I do want to put that on people's radar screens, because zoning is very powerful because, as you point out, it dictates how all development can happen. But why stop at the property line when the local government could benefit from a more coherent approach to the public realm too? So I'll put that out there as my best case, the summary of the legal argument that I make in the book and that we use to justify our interventions in public streets in Hartford.

Jennifer Hiatt:

As you've mentioned many times, you were on Hartford, connecticut's Planning Commission when you worked with them to overhaul their zoning regulations. That's a perspective that we just really haven't heard from as an actual planning commissioner writing a book about zoning overhaul At least, I haven't seen it. So what's one of your biggest takeaways that you would like to share about that experience?

Sara Bronin:

For me it was a tremendous gift to serve on this commission because, as a law professor and somebody who spent my whole life researching and studying land use laws, it was the opportunity to put all of that into practice and to understand what it means to guide a community ethically and inclusively and collaboratively through a major effort For me.

Sara Bronin:

I guess the other thing that I would say is that we didn't just stop at the zoning code. I guess the other thing that I would say is that we didn't just stop at the zoning code. We also wrote a new city plan that was maybe symbiotic with the zoning code, which identified sort of our top development sites, rezoned those, the overall city plan for the inclusion of environmental change, sustainability, transportation access and more. We overhauled the subdivision regulations, the inland wetlands regulations, the climate action plan that we adopted, built from the zoning code and expanded beyond just zoning and land use to a variety of other goals, and we actually launched a city sustainability office with the climate action plan that we'd collaboratively developed as well. So we used the zoning code and the important conversations that it generated to not only just take that regulatory move but also these auxiliary regulations and then also the city's aspirations for itself. All working together, I hope, to lay the groundwork for a much more equitable, inclusive, sustainable city, one that promoted development but also respected the existing architecture and the existing communities. Very importantly.

Stephanie Rouse:

That is a lot of work, but seems to be the better approach that you're touching everything all at once instead of these piecemeal changes, as you're going along with different documents not all working together.

Sara Bronin:

Yeah, and the book doesn't really cover all of those other things that we did. I really wanted to focus just on zoning, but that context might help to explain why I did end up making a lot of these connections in the book to what we had done in Hartford and these broader trends. And again, you know things like environmental issues and transportation and food and all of that. But, for example, in Hartford we work with the Food Policy Commission, as you may have read in the book, to change our approach to urban agriculture. That, too, unlocked a whole series of questions for me about oh wait, cities can do this. And again, we work very collaboratively to identify those issues.

Sara Bronin:

So, you're right, there's not necessarily a book like that that describes how somebody might engage in a comprehensive zoning overhaul, and there's tips about it in the book, I guess, or I guess, a breadcrumb trail. But I also didn't want to hit people over the head with here's how you have to do it. Here's the laundry list of things. I wanted to just make it really an organic tale where, if somebody was really interested in that, they could pick up on the approaches and things that we did and, if you know, they hopefully use that information for good.

Stephanie Rouse:

And as this is booked on planning, what books would you recommend our readers check out?

Sara Bronin:

Well, I'll put out there. We talked at the top of the hour about the move Moses reshaped not just New York City but the entire metropolitan area and, in fact, how cities were planned in that and, in fact, to some extent, are still planned and changed. Your listeners probably have all these books, but the thing I love about the Power Broker is that it explains how somebody essentially had a big vision and it was not a great vision, as we all know hopefully most of us agree anyway to how a city might develop but it was a vision that he was able to implement through methodical, technical changes, through the manipulation of the public and political process and just through relentless adherence to the approach. And I think that planners today and as we think about the power of zoning today, we can learn from that and we can ask ourselves and I hope this book starts or at least contributes to that conversation we can ask ourselves if we feel that zoning is here to stay. What is our big vision? How do we go about achieving it? So that is, I think, the next thing that I'm going to stay.

Sara Bronin:

What is our big vision? How do we go about achieving it? So that is, I think, the next thing that I'm going to try to work on in 2025, if we have New Year's resolutions and use the National Zoning Atlas and the data that we've been accumulating there to help to provide a roadmap. So we've done this book about the stories of zoning and what it does and then, I think, soon I really want to focus on that. And so, thinking about the power broker, I don't want to be Robert, I mean to be Robert Moses. So that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I think zoning is going to have a moment very soon and getting that historical knowledge, getting those contrary views you know Nolan's view let's not have zoning. It's terrible, which it is in many cases but how do we then move to a different place? I think getting as many of these views out as possible and engaging in the literature that's out there is going to be really important for us to move forward.

Stephanie Rouse:

I can't remember which author, but there was another author that also recommended the Power Broker, and I only recently was made aware of this book.

Sara Bronin:

Oh, wow, okay. So yeah, you've got to read it.

Stephanie Rouse:

It seems big, but it's so well-written that I feel like once you commit to doing it, you'll finish it. You'll be fascinated. That's the only reason I haven't started is it is a long book.

Jennifer Hiatt:

We read it in one of my planning classes and I always feel very awkward when I say the Power Broker is one of my favorite planning books because everyone's like you like Robert Moses. No, I like the book the Power Broker. It's very interesting. I'm not promoting Robert Moses, but you should read the book. It's great.

Stephanie Rouse:

Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us on Booked on Planning to talk about your book Key to the City.

Sara Bronin:

Thank you so much for having me. This has been a super fun conversation. Key to the City. Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Hiatt:

This has been a super fun conversation. We hope you enjoyed this conversation with author Sarah Bronnan on her book Key to the City how Zoning Shapes Our World. You can get your own copy through the publisher at WW Norton Co. Or click the link in the show notes to take you directly to our affiliate page. Remember to subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts and please rate, review and share the show show. Thank you.

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